21-year Scottish police veteran and PTSD survivor, Ginny McKenna, shares her own experience with occupational stress injuries and her work as a certified police stress coach and critical incident support facilitator helping frontline police officers and police staff beat stress, move beyond trauma and transform their lives. The traumatic impact of misogynistic discrimination, harassment and bullying she experienced as a female police officer during the early years of her 21-year career (1999- 2000). How she took time off to work through her own trauma and suicidality before returning to active duty. The importance of removing the stigmas around mental health, of regular mental health check-ups for police officers and of making significant investments in the health and well-being of police officers.
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Removing the Stigmas Around Mental Health with Ginny McKenna Transcript
Dr. Suzanne Knabe-Nicol:
Hello everyone, and welcome to this day of the Global First Responders Resilience Summit. I'm going to be a co-host today. I'm Dr. Suzanne Knabe-Nicol from policesciencedoctor.com and also a lecturer of criminology in policing and investigations at Middlesex University in London, UK. Today I'm interviewing the wonderful Ginny McKenna.. She is an ex-cop. She's got 20 years of UK street policing under her belt, and she has been through hell, I'll tell you. She has had depression and anxiety, she was suicidal, she was bullied seriously at work, and she's been through everything that you could possibly imagine, but she's come out of that. She's now an ex-cop. She's decided to become an accredited life coach, and most life coaches are not actually credited. However she is. She's qualified, and she will tell you a little bit more about what she does, and I'm going to get started now. Welcome to the session. Ginny,
Ginny McKenna:
Thank you, Suzanne, it's a pleasure to be here.
Dr. Suzanne Knabe-Nicol:
Can you give us a brief overview of your origin story, how you came to be what you are now, and what your experiences were?
Ginny McKenna:
Absolutely. I am an ex-police officer. I actually retired on the 30th of June, 2020. Prior to that, I did 21 years of police service, both in England and in Scotland, in some of the quite deprived areas of the UK. I did that in two batches. My first batch was when I was very young, very naive, and about 21 years old. And when I joined West Yorkshire Police at that time, it was a very misogynistic environment. Women were not encouraged. I was one of the few women who were actually within the force at that time. And I find or found that every place I wanted to go, everything I wanted to do, I was stopped all the time because I was a woman. I was subjected to sexual discrimination, sexual harassment, humiliation, bullying, you name it. And eventually, I had a breakdown, and I left the police service never to return, or that was the vow I made to myself. I suffered greatly, if I heard the sound of a police siren, I would almost run and hide somewhere, get myself into a fetal position, and stay there until the sound had disappeared. And the crazy thing is, I got myself out of that. It took me about 10 years, in all honesty, to recover from that particular time of my life. And I did that totally alone because, at the time I left the police, my partner had just left me prior to all that happening. It had been very much an abusive relationship. Had been very coercive, rather than violent, but very coercive. So I had no contact with friends, with family, with colleagues. I was totally isolated, and so I had to deal with all that on my own. Got myself through that. And in all honesty, I look back now and am not really sure how I did it. I certainly contemplated suicide. And if it hadn't been for my pet dog, then I probably wouldn't be here talking to you now. And that was then. And I decided at that point that was the last I was ever gonna have to do with police. I hated the police. Hated everything about the police. And I went on with my life. And then when I kind of got to the ripe old age of 40, I suddenly decided, actually things might have changed at the police and my kind of interactions with police officers in Scotland, once I moved to Scotland, actually showed me that the attitude to women in the job was totally different. I decided I needed to lose about five stone in weight, get fit and get back into the job, and do what I set out to do. And that's exactly what I did. So at the ripe old age of 42, I think, I finally got accepted in; went through all the training with people half my age, which is a challenge in itself, and got back out then doing the job that I absolutely loved and adored and the one that I'd always wanted to do from being a very young child. And then when Police Scotland came about, when all the forces in Scotland all amalgamated into one, I quickly realized that what I wanted from the job, and the way the job was going were totally different. I had a couple of instances of ill health where I was off work for maybe three or four months of time. And when Covid hit, although it's been a horrendous thing for everyone, it was kind of my wake-up call. Did I want to go back to work? Did I want to continue experiencing, you know the issues with my health, both mental and physical health, or do I want to just choose this as an opportunity to move on? And I think, as a lot of people have done, they've taken stock and decided to move on. Prior to actually leaving the job, I had decided that I needed to retrain because once I chose to retire, I wanted to continue doing something.9 I felt a bit too young to actually physically retire from work altogether, and so I got involved in life coaching, and hence what I'm doing today.
Dr. Suzanne Knabe-Nicol:
What would you say is the, because you said it took you about 10 years to recover from your breakdown, which maybe some would say is not, it's not very quick, and maybe it was not the best way of doing it, but obviously, you didn't know any better at the time, and you didn't have any support. What would you say is the wrong way of dealing with such issues, and what is the right way of dealing with such issues?
Ginny McKenna:
Absolutely doing what I did, which was ignoring it and going it alone, is totally, 100% the wrong way to deal with things. I would definitely not recommend that. I went through some very, very dark days while I was trying to get myself back into what I considered normal and healthy mode that, you know, there was that thing about feeling it was a weakness or there was a character flaw, that I couldn't cope. I want people to get that idea out of their head immediately, that isn't the case at all. If you liken it to being an athlete or a sports person, you know, and you had an injury, would you push through regardless and hope that you came out the other end okay? Of course, you wouldn't. And I think mental health is exactly the same. So, you know, my advice to someone, if they're struggling and feel that things are getting out of hand for them, that they're not well, I would suggest that they take time out, give themselves the time they need, find some help, wherever that may be, and give themselves the opportunity to recover and to regain full health. And I guarantee, I mean, I am much much stronger, I'm much happier than ever I was when I was a police officer. And despite all the challenges that I've gone through, I feel stronger than I've ever felt, and I feel that my mental health is stronger than ever. And it's about just accepting that just for now, you might need to step back and give yourself that opportunity to recover, to get stronger again so that you can go back out there, because if you don't, pushing on is dangerous for you, for everyone that knows you, and anyone that comes into contact with you, because you're not thinking properly. You know when you're in that continuous state of being heightenedly stressed, your prefrontal cortex is blocked. You're not thinking straight, you're not making good decisions. You're not making good choices. That's only going to work out one way. You know, when I think about, you know, times I was, I was driving a traffic car at, you know, three figures. Couldn't even remember the journey. And you think what's happened? You know, when you put yourself at that risk, there are other people out there at that risk as well. So absolutely don't, don't think of it as a weakness, and absolutely do not go it alone. Always reach out and ask for help, because there is help out there now.
Dr. Suzanne Knabe-Nicol:
So apart from taking a break, that might be an option for some, might not be an option for others. But for both these scenarios where you can step back job, but for both of those scenarios, what other things do you think people need to do in practical terms to get better?
Ginny McKenna:
In practical terms, I would, I would argue there with you, Suzanne, that you can't afford not to step back if it's got to that situation. It depends where you are, I suppose, on the continuum between stress and trauma. Stress at one end, trauma at the other end, if it's early days, then there are, there are things you can do. I mean, I've got an e-book that people are more than welcome to have, which explains about all the different ways that you're impacted by stress. It gives you exercises that you can work through to actually recognize what stress is to you and how it triggers you. Techniques and tools that you can use to calm yourself, getting involved with something that you know you enjoy, making sure that you maintain relationships to the best of your ability, leaving work at work where possible, and I know that's not always easy to do, but again, it's about knowing. You know, if you're impacted, have someone to talk to at least. Now I know as a cop, you know, do we want to go home and say we've had a really bad day and then go through exactly what we've seen? No, absolutely not, we don't want to impact our families in that way. But I don't think it hurts for us to have someone who we can have as a confidant, who we can talk to, who perhaps understands the job. That, in itself, is great, because then you're not having to explain the job to someone. So you know, if you've got someone you can speak to in your family, who you know understands your job, or you have a friend who understands or someone you can share that with that's a great way to do it. Getting, you know, a decent amount of sleep. There are ways to have a better sleep. You know, you need to have a cooler room. You know, you need to keep out any light or any noise. You need to make sure that you're not playing on your phone and on screens that are bringing in blue light, which are the ones that wake you up. There are lots of different ways. And the ebook that I've got, which I'm more than happy to share with anybody, will give you all those kinds of techniques. But physical activity is really good, because that in itself will help you to kind of do a dump of all the hormones that are in there from stress. And there's numerous, numerous research programs that you know, absolutely say, get physical, you know, because it lightens the load, it improves your mental clarity, it takes away some of the depression. It makes you feel happier. So there's lots of different things you can do, you know, at that stage. If you've gone beyond that and you're really, really struggling, then I would, I would say to you, absolutely, you need to have time away. Certainly in the UK, you do get paid sick leave. So I would strongly recommend that if you have the opportunity to step away from what your main trigger is, and if that's coming from the stress of your work, than you need to step away from that for a short time and get the help that you need.
Dr. Suzanne Knabe-Nicol:
And I'll see if we can link to your ebook underneath this video, and also another tool, obviously, that you've developed, that we've gathered, is the Emergency Stress Pit Stop. It's an online coaching program that you can do at the Police Science Doctor Academy. We'll see if we can link to that as well, for anyone who wants to see if that might help them at all.
Ginny McKenna:
Yeah. Could I also say Susan, I've also got a Stress Scorecard App they're welcome to try. It just allows you to work through all the different things, asking questions, and at the end of that, it gives you a stress score as to whether or not you know you're dealing well with your stress, or at what point you're at, whether it's not good, or whether it's not, you know, bad at all. And again, you'll have the link there to the free e-book as well. I think it's well worth doing. Is free and my email is on there if you want to contact me directly as well.
Dr. Suzanne Knabe-Nicol:
Okay, fantastic. Yeah, we'll see if we can get all those resources down there. What do you think needs to change from law enforcement and the emergency services to enable those organizations to improve the mental health of their staff?
Ginny McKenna:
I think first and foremost, organizations need to win back the trust of their own staff, which would involve a complete re-think by chief officers & senior management teams, and the only way they are going to win that back is by promoting change, and that has to come from the top. It's down to chief officers, police, and their staff to support in a safe environment the members of staff; to give them opportunities to access as many different resources as they may need to help them; and to remove the stigma that you know, unfortunately, is a global stigma, and I get that, but it's a stigma against people with mental health. They automatically assume, if you've had a mental health issue, that you are completely broken. Well, I'm a testament to the fact that that's not the case, and I know many, many other people who have come back from mental health issues who are stronger, fitter, and happier than they've ever been. So I think it needs to come from the top. I think chiefs need to be prepared to speak openly about their own thoughts and struggles, and also to be prepared to share the benefits they have experienced from having any regular mental health check-ins that they may have had. I think it was Einstein who was credited with saying, I'm kind of paraphrasing here, "the definition of insanity, if you keep doing things you've always done, basically you're gonna get the same result." So if you want something different, then something has to change. And I think it's time that chiefs needed to do that. And I can give you, for instance, I mean, on LinkedIn, I have innumerable connections with chiefs of police all over the world, who regularly enter into dialog with me , you know, by messaging or even face-to-face contact through the various platforms. And they're happy to talk about their challenges. They're happy to talk about what they're trying to achieve. Now, I have not got a single chief in the UK who's prepared to enter into a dialog with me. Now, I would ask the question, why? You know, it's no good just having a ticky box system, which an awful lot of forces have with their employment assistance programs, and they are viewed as that by cops and staff, that it's just a ticky box exercise to make it look they're trying to do something. I think chief officers really do need to start thinking about how much real benefit are their members of staff getting from that program. Personally, I got no benefit at all from it, and I know an awful lot of people who I work with have got absolutely no benefit either. So I think it's time for a change of approach. I think chiefs of police and senior management teams, particularly in the UK, maybe in other countries as well, need to be much more open to doing things differently than they've ever done before, because what's been done before just isn't working.
Dr. Suzanne Knabe-Nicol:
And what do you think are the main barriers for all of this to happen, you know, the change actually coming from the top, the trust being regained, the willingness of some of the chiefs to engaged: what do you think is holding all of that back?
Ginny McKenna:
You know, I think, sadly, in some cases, it's a fear of opening the gate and the tide coming in. I think for others, it's the thought of how much is this going to cost? There is absolutely, in the world a stigma against people with mental health issues, absolutely. I think it was The World Health Organization said there is somewhere in the region of about 450 million people suffering with mental health issues in the world at the moment, and two thirds of those people never reach out for help because they're afraid of the stigma. They're afraid of what's going to be said, what's going to be done. They don't want to put their head above the parapet. And I would suggest that you know, can I say it's all about money? I don't know, but chiefs have got budgets, and I think what they're failing to see is that the amount of cash that they're putting in to actually cover sickness at the moment, and officers who can't do their job, and the fact that they're for the officers that are still going out there and still carrying on despite their health and not doing a good job because they're impacted by the mental health issues. What's the cost? What's the cost to society? What's the cost to that officer and his family? What's the cost to that organization? Whichever way you do it, you're paying that money out. I think put the money where it's gonna make the most impact, you know, look after your staff, get them healthy, get them fit. You know, there are examples in the world, particularly in the States. I've met a couple of senior chiefs who've instigated things, theyve had to find the money, but what they've got now is a much healthier force, they have cops that are being more impactful in the community in a positive way, as opposed to a negative way. And I know at the moment that certainly in the States, they're having a rough time of it, they're getting a really bad press. Some of it's deserved an awful lot of it's not. But you put a sick cop out there, you're not going to get the best out of them, and you keep beating them and pushing them out there and not giving them the support they need, something's going to give. So I think there's, there's a whole stigma thing going on. And I think chiefs just need to realize, you know what, maybe it's time I climb down from my ivy tower and realize that there are people out there doing something, getting positive results. Why don't I just go and ask them? We don't need to reinvent the wheel here. There are people out there doing it, getting it right, why not ask them and see what you can bring back to your own force, and then put in the investment? And eventually, the amount of money you're putting out in terms of sickness, and covering for officers who can't do their job, that will start to decrease. And then you'll be funding the more positive, supportive well-being, that they're all entitled to, with the money that is available,
Dr. Suzanne Knabe-Nicol:
And chiefs are often scared of these decisions that cost money. But actually, like you're saying it's an investment, you're actually making money back because a few weeks ago, you and I interviewed Chief of Police from the US, Cory Darling, who was telling us about the measures he took to cut down mental health problems in his force. And I don't remember the figures now, but the sickness rates dropped drastically. Insurance payouts dropped so much that the insurance company phoned him up and asked him, "What are you doing? This is great. You know, we're paying out so much less than before,!" So actually you're making money. But the problem is, often chiefs don't see it that way, because initially you're forking out on activities. But actually, I'll let you explain. If you had, if you managed to have a one-to-one with one of those chiefs of police, what would you tell them to implement, what would you tell them to do to make their workforce healthier?
Ginny McKenna:
Well, I think one of the first things I would do is I would get them to instigate mental health check ins, and I would ask them to be brave enough to meet that challenge, go and have the mental health check in and then report it back on the internet for the force and explain, you know what happened, how they found it, not necessarily the actual conversation, because obviously that's confidential, but just so their own officers go, "Hang on. Look, I've put this in place. I'm doing this now." You know. And if it has to be that it's mandatory, then make it mandatory, you know, because at some point people need help, and they have to realize that there's help out there. And I also think it needs to be probably external to the organization, in order that people have the confidence to go there and know that nothing that they say is going to be fed back. I think it's important that they need to look at different ways of helping their staff. They need initially, you know, I mean, let's face it, being a cop is a stressful job, that's not going to change. You're not going to be able to get rid of those stresses, because the things that police officers see on a daily basis, a member of the public are highly, highly unlikely to come across in their entire life. Police officers see that regularly, not just once, twice, three times, sometimes a lot more, every working day of their life. Now you can't get rid of that, but a recent study in Canada, and I think they're now undertaking that study in Australia, has pointed out that both operational and organizational stresses, they're twice as likely to impact an officer or member of staff's mental health. So there are things you can do there. I mean, policing is all about risk assessment, so let's do what we do best. Let's risk-assess operational and organizational stresses. Let's determine what we can eliminate or what we can mitigate to reduce the impact on officers and staff, and you'll see a huge change just with that. Would that cost a lot? I'm not sure it would. You know, we need to look at these things. Then you need to start thinking about having your officers perhaps be more active. There are not many forces certainly in the UK where you have to undergo a fitness test every year. So it's about encouraging people to be active. It's about looking at the shift system. Does the shift system work? Well, clearly, 24/7, there has to be coverage. But is there a better shift system out there? There's lots of things they could do, and they need to start doing them. So I'd be asking a chief, what is it you do and what you're prepared to do? Because at the moment, what you're doing just isn't working, it isn't impacting your staff. You know, teach these men and women, techniques for breathing to calm them. Teach them how to deal with the stress triggers. You know, have that opportunity to have a mental health check-in, have the opportunity for them to access services without having to go through, you know, a personnel department, HR department, and there's no limit to the number of times they can access that service. You know, it's great going to an EAP and getting six counseling sessions, but when the six are done, that's you, you know, not everybody's problem is going to be solved in succession. Some it may only take one or two, some it may take more. And I think it's just about, I think if I was perfectly blunt, I'd be just saying to the chief officer, you put your money where your mouth is. You know, you're saying that you support your staff. You're saying that you want them fit and healthy. But the reality of what you're putting out there just isn't meeting it.
Dr. Suzanne Knabe-Nicol:
It was an interesting study that you mentioned that found that organizational stresses are so much worse for mental health of staff and offices than operational. But just to clarify, so the operational is what police and law enforcement have to deal with. You know, the incidents, the crime, the calls, and everything. There's not much you can do about that, because that's the job. The organizational stresses, that's what is actually really bringing them down, and that can be changed. And these are things like how you're treating your staff. So there was an example of an officer who was in charge, I think of the custody suite, and there was a death in custody, and that in itself, is tragic for the person who passed away, for their family and for the staff involved, because everybody is going to be wondering, "oh, my God, what should I have done anything differently?" But then there's a way of dealing with the staff who were then working or in charge of that situation. So you can either treat them and give them support, but still get all the evidence, interview them and question them, you know, be very open about what it is you're trying to achieve, but you can do that in a calm and objective way. Or you can add additional stress onto them by treating them as if they've done something wrong at the outset, and that's what happened to this officer. It was the trauma of how they were treated by the organization and the fact that their colleagues actually turned away just in case they got associated with that situation, with that internal investigation, that was causing the most stress. Now that is unnecessary. That person either did or did not do something wrong. You can get to that outcome in a way that makes them very unwell; and you can get to that outcome in a way that actually gains their cooperation. So the organization can do a lot, and it's things like how things are communicated to them, whether they feel valued or not, whether they're overworked. And there's a lot of things that organizations can do here.
Ginny McKenna:
Absolutely I think, in all honesty, Suzanne, if I'm brutally honest with with with my issues with stress, the usual traumatic events that you associate with a job role, maybe a death in custody, maybe a serious road accident emergency, and all of those kind of things: they're absolutely horrific. But for me, the hardest thing to deal with was the organizational stressors and some of the operational ones. Because sometimes, yes, there are things that you have to do as part of your job, but they can be improved on in the way that they're approached. So for me, the organizational, and operational stressors were
the ones that impacted me the most, absolutely.
Dr. Suzanne Knabe-Nicol:
And I would say for me as well, the two most stressful periods of my life. There was an incident, and then there was how it was dealt with and how I was dealt with. And definitely the 'how I was dealt with' was the bit that really made it so difficult for me, because incidents I can handle, obviously the other things I handled as well, but that was a lot more difficult. Now, obviously, you've stepped away from being a police officer now and you're a life coach. So how do you help people and what do you specialize in?
Ginny McKenna:
Well, when I retired, as I say, I decided to become a life coach, because it seemed like a really great thing to me, because it's about moving people from where they are now into a more positive place in their life. And I kind of stumbled across that, but got involved in it and made huge changes to my life. And in addition to that, I've also undertaken additional training in life stress reduction and traumatic incident reduction, and working as a facilitator in both those techniques as well. In addition to the online course I've done with yourself Suzanne, which is all about giving someone, an individual, the opportunity to have knowledge around their own stress and their own triggers and then become more resilient, I also provide workshops, but you know, whether that's virtual or in person, around recognizing stress and how to handle that, and then, as the coach & facilitator, I work on a one-to-one basis to provide a safe and supportive environment for my clients in which I can allow them the opportunity to access their unprocessed thoughts around incidents, events that they've come across in their working day. In doing so, it allows the client to completely face a painful incident that they've perhaps tried to force to the back of their mind and ignore and not get involved in. But when you're allowed to actually face that incident in a very positive and safe environment and experience it, then you get positive results for that, because it allows you to process the whole thing. I think it's it's very much like the elephant in the room. If you say to someone, "Don't think about the elephant," what comes into the room but the elephant and you're constantly trying to push that elephant out of the room. And that's what trauma is. It's about unprocessed thoughts that come back into your head because you're trying to keep them at bay, and the best way is to actually face those traumas and to process them. And in doing so the client makes their own determinations. They get valuable insights, and it's all spontaneous. I mean, as a facilitator, I don't label or interpret anything that the client says I merely facilitate for them because the greatest gift you have is that you know yourself better than anybody, and in actual fact, you're the person that can help yourself and get yourself away from that situation, but you need to have the ability to be able to process that and have the technique available to you that can guide you through that. And I think you know the facilitation is not easy by any stretch, but the number of clients that I've taken through that process who have been holding on to traumas for in excess of 20 years, who can then just look back on it as a memory, and it will be like just talking to you about a shopping list, you know, where before the thought of that would put them into some sort of fight or flight situation, they would get stressed. They would get anxious. They'd be desperate to try to force that thing out of the room again. But once you've once you've been able to process something fully, there is no emotional attachment anymore. So you're not going to forget that thing, because it's part & parcel of who you are and part & parcel of your background, but you can actually look at it and see it for what it is, because you've processed it and dealt with that emotion that's attached to it. There's no more charge there. So those are the different ways that I work with people now, and the majority of this is work I do with emergency staff, employees from all the different emergency services, and not just in the UK. I've got a couple of global clients as well. It's just brilliant to be able to help people like that, because I never had access to any of that when I was going through what I was going through, no friends, no family, because, as I said, I'd been coerced in such a way that they'd been pushed away from my life and weren't part of it anymore. But there were no professional services to help me in that way. The closest professional help I got was from my doctor, who even though I told him I tried to end my life with pills & alcohol, thought it would be a good idea to give me a prescription of pills. And fortunately, I had the sense at that point to realize that was not going to be the good thing for me. Now I'm not saying that you should go to your GP, and if your GP suggests you need antidepressants or whatever else. That's absolutely fine. All I'm saying is there was nothing else available for me at the time, and no one there to help me move that forward any quicker than I can get through it on my own.
Dr. Suzanne Knabe-Nicol:
Just to clarify for the international viewers, GP stands for general practitioner. It's a family doctor here in the UK. You mentioned earlier on, the external help that people should get if they can and if they need it. What difference do you think now that you're this external help, what difference do you think it makes to your clients, people who come to you for help, that you've actually walked in their shoes, that you've actually been in law enforcement yourself?
Ginny McKenna:
From the feedback I've had from my clients, and as I say, I've got an awful lot from the emergency services, I think the greatest thing for them is that they're not having to replay their work life like it's some sort of TV program. I know I've had quite a lot of them feedback to me that they've gone into some sort of therapy or counseling session, and you know, the typical counseling therapy session is about 50 minutes, and they spend probably about 40 minutes or more of that talking about the job, as opposed to talking about what's important, which is them. So they actually come out feeling like a reality t.v. star. No better off for having been there. And the great thing about the fact that I've been in the job is that I get it, I get about the nights, I get about shift work, I get about the politics, I get about the fact that there are no resources and yet the job still needs to get done, and guess what? It's you that's doing it and nobody else. I get all of that because I've been there. And so, it's not that they have to relive that kind of thing, we can actually just get right to the nitty-gritty of what's causing their issues. And I think having the credibility of having lived that life for over 20 years, I think that is hugely beneficial to my clients.
Dr. Suzanne Knabe-Nicol:
I think so as well. That makes complete sense. Perhaps it's not something that people have considered before, but you know, if you've explained those, those those details that previous clients, or clients who have seen someone else previously, that they really felt like, you know, I spent so much of the session just fascinating the other person, the therapist or the coach or whoever it was that was supposed to help them. We didn't even get to my problem. It was almost entertainment to them. Now, how would you want that culture in which it is, perhaps suppressed, or at least people perceive it as not safe to, you know, to raise their hand saying, "Look, I'm struggling, I'm struggling with what happened. I'm struggling generically. I'm struggling with this." How would you want that to change in law enforcement?
Ginny McKenna:
I think it's probably going to be a three pronged attack, Suzanne. I think firstly, we need to look at the organization. They need to consistently demonstrate their genuine care for the staff, and that the stigma that is held currently globally about mental health challenges, has no place in the emergency services. And that there will not be any negative impact on their staff standing up and saying, "I need help." Now, in terms of the individual, I think they also need to recognize that they have a responsibility for their own health and that they have to reach out and ask for help. It doesn't have to be the organization, because if the organization hasn't proven that they are taking this seriously and that they can be trusted in this area, then go to a third party. And I think the third prong would be the organization, its staff, staff representatives, care providers, government even, let's all pull together to find the right solution. It's about not being too proud as well, I think, to ask those who are doing it right and getting the desired results for guidance, you know, you don't need to reinvent the wheel. There are people out there getting some of this stuff, right. So why not ask these people? You know, and stop being so territorial. Because I know that, oh, we do it like this in this force, so we can't do it like that. You know, it doesn't really matter. You know, we're all brothers and sisters in blue or green or whatever color your emergency services colors are. It's about helping those people. So let's get rid of all the territorial stuff. Let's start having organizations that genuinely care, and they're making as much effort as they can to impact good mental health for the staff. And then let's all of us together, sit around the table and have a conversation about what people need. And then let's see how that can be instigated.
Dr. Suzanne Knabe-Nicol:
Sounds good. I hope that happens. If people only took away one thing from this interview, from this conversation today, what would you want that thing to be Ginny?
Ginny McKenna:
I think if I'm speaking to an individual here, I would say to them that you need to get help. Don't go it alone. My way wasn't the right way. You have an absolute right to deserve to be fit and healthy, as does your family, and as does the community that you serve. Organisationally, I would go back to that quote from Einstein. Don't keep doing what you've always done and expect a different result, because it's not working. Be prepared to be vulnerable. Own your mistakes, but don't be defined by them. Lead the way, make a positive impact. Let that define you as an organization, and ensure that the impact you make on your employees' mental health is a positive.
Dr. Suzanne Knabe-Nicol:
Ginny McKenna, thank you very much for your time today.
Ginny McKenna:
It's been an absolute pleasure, Suzanne, thank you.
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